4E is even worse than I thoughtso

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:35 am

So, I'm finally playing 4E.
Ignoring that the skill system sucks, and it does not encourage actual roleplaying.

Who thought it was a good idea to have encounter and daily powers that have basically a 50% or better chance of being useless. Not only do I have only 1 encounter power, but there is a good chance that it just won't do anything, and not only will you lose your action for the round. But you lose 1 of your main powers.

It's horrible, and makes for very sad games.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:02 am

I'd ask how tht is new, but realised: that's actually something we rarely criticise 4E for. There are so many other things wrong with it that we forget that the marginally-better-or-more-interesting Dailies and Encounter Powers miss half the time and you end up feeling more disappointed than when the foe saves against your SoD in 3E.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:10 am

Its new to me, cause I managed to dodge 4e until now

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:40 am

sabs wrote:Not only do I have only 1 encounter power, but there is a good chance that it just won't do anything, and not only will you lose your action for the round. But you lose 1 of your main powers.

If you changed it to "if you miss you can try again" would it be less sad?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:55 am

Hilariously, there's a keyword which does that but of course you pay for that privilege by taking a power that is otherwise below par to begin with. 4e really likes to get you coming and going.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:45 am

The powers would still be unimaginative and dull, and for the most part suck. But I at least, wouldn't feel like, why did I even bother

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:57 pm

The low levels of 3E and 4E D&D are the most excruciating parts of either game. But at least battles in 3E are over quickly before the monotony sets in and there's a real sense of danger from the stray criticals.

That said, when I'm serving as a DM for either edition, I never start groups below level 4 and 7, respectively.

Going back to bitching about 4E D&D, I think the starting-out 'hit' rate of 50-60% for powers is way too low. As it is, you're almost guaranteed to have at least one player in a six-person group whiff three powers in a row -- and given the 5MoD structure this game supports, they'll likely be your most powerful stuff, too. That's immensely frustrating for most people whether they win or lose the battle.

If/when I design a TTRPG, I'll be setting the average to-hit of powers against a level-appropriate enemy at around 70-80%.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:23 pm

I thought most of the encounter powers still had effects if you miss?

I know if you're a Wizard pretty much every encounter power you have includes an effect line, you end up doing no damage but teleporting/immobilizing/sliding/slowing a bunch of enemies.

I agree though, the hit-rate for characters that aren't optimized (it's super easy to be optimized, but still) is way too low. Even optimized and targeting the low defenses of level appropriate enemies you'll only get up to 75% or so at best.

Now all I can remember is that boss fight at the end of keep on the shadowfell (whatever the first module was) where you have to fight an enemy who's such a high level you have a hit rate of like, 30% unless you're flanking and shit.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:33 pm

Well, I have a sword mage.
My Sword of Sigils basically has no effect if it doesn't hit. And, I get to roll a to hit for every creature i hit. Also, 1st level, I have a +7 to hit. That's not bad. Except that everything we're fighting has a 16 or 17 AC, so I have basically a 50% miss rate.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:37 pm

Ah, the classic 'trap' class. The sword mage sounds nifty, and is interesting conceptually, but you'll quickly find it lacking in a lot of areas- the AoE abilities are fairly crap when compared to any other class that has AoE and the damage is decidedly subpar, and stunlocks are few and far between.

The tanking mechanic is one of the more interesting ones, if that is any consolation at all.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:41 pm

I like the mark a guy, give his targets 5+con DR
That's actually a really cool mechanic. But it's really hard for the sword mage to mark more than 1 guy.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:51 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:I thought most of the encounter powers still had effects if you miss?

Daily powers, for sure. But most of the encounter powers I can think of do nothing on a miss.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:24 pm

No. Your character design is bad. There are only two workable build philosophies in 4e:

1. The Nova Guy. The entire character is built around pulling a big combo of buffs + action points + dailies & encounters. Due to the 4e designers being bad at math and never realizing that an additional attack is always least twice as good as an extra [W], this tends to involve finding exception-based design that lets you use multiple multi-attack powers inside a single round. But sometimes there are weird buffing or vulnerability stacking tricks that do comparable damage.

2. The Spammer. The entire character is built around using an at-will power every single round and builds to optimize that power in as many ways as possible.

Neither of those is notably impacted by having a daily miss.

For Swordmage at low levels, you probably want to be an assault swordmage spamming Green Flame Blade, which is a rare and precious at-will area attack.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:27 pm

except that I specifically want to tank, and far as I can tell, I can't switch between assault and defense swordmage ever.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:34 pm

hogarth wrote:
Pseudo Stupidity wrote:I thought most of the encounter powers still had effects if you miss?
Daily powers, for sure. But most of the encounter powers I can think of do nothing on a miss.

I guess controllers are special in that regard, leaders as well. Most Wizard and Warlord abilities that I used had effect lines because powers without effect lines suck.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:51 pm

sabs wrote:except that I specifically want to tank, and far as I can tell, I can't switch between assault and defense swordmage ever.

The problem is the 4e conception of tanking is really terrible- as you realize, you can't reliably mark more than one opponent, so you're really only mitigating one guy out of half a dozen (or so). A class that can reliably murder the fuck out of people [or give the rest of party extra murder power] or reliably stunlock people just does better at your job. A push & daze effect (on a melee opponent, admittedly) basically trumps any sort of tank mechanic given to the 'defender' classes.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:01 pm

Josh Kablack wrote:No. Your character design is bad. There are only two workable build philosophies in 4e:

If you feel comfortable with the rules and basic tactics, two additional builds open up to you.

[*] The Mezzer. This build generally works by increasing the AoE of all of their attacks (such as Enlarge Spell or Flame Mage PP or Resounding Thunder) and then layering additional status effects on top of that. While this overlaps with the At-Will spammer, two classes in particular (the druid and the mage/wizard) can apply this sort of layering to all of their effects because of their rich selection.

[*] The Force multiplier. This one is simple. You boost the attack and damage bonuses (and much more rarely, defense)of your teammates sky-high and throw out extra attacks. The Warlord and its bevy of 'everyone gets one or more attacks against a foe' powers exemplify this, though a clever cleric or runepriest player can get much the same effect. Of course for maximum cheese you will want to be a Warlord|Cleric or Runepriest hybrid and then take the multiclassing feats to plunder special abilities you're missing.

I might in fact post such a cheesy build.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:14 am

Josh_Kablack wrote: For Swordmage at low levels, you probably want to be an assault swordmage spamming Green Flame Blade, which is a rare and precious at-will area attack.

Sword Burst?

It doesn't really matter which Swordmage type you are because they all suck pretty hard. Entangling is the worst of a bad lot, and Shielding used to actually sorta-effectively mitigate damage once you got multimarks. You also don't get the fun MBA boosters or access to the weapons to make it worth just swinging your sword.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:06 am

sabs wrote:The powers would still be unimaginative and dull, and for the most part suck. But I at least, wouldn't feel like, why did I even bother

I enjoy the interrupt powers the most, like Disrupting Strike, or the counterattack type moves that raise your defense and let you run away or hit them back or teleport away.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:01 am

Well I do believe there are ways to get multi-marking, like the warden multi-class feat:

defender of the wild (phb2), encounter, mark everyone next to you, till end of your next turn.

But it requires 13 str, and str was a dump stat for swordmages I believe?
(haven't looked at 4e in a year or smt)

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:12 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
I might in fact post such a cheesy build.

Well, assuming it's not another false promise, or hint of one, then by all means do it. Especially if ye can post up some optimized ranged characters, then doubly so, I'd request you to do it (I play in a 4th edition game of all ranged party, Warlord, Bard, I as Ranger, Sorcerer and Rogue).

Agreed on the fun of Disruptive strike, it's great when ye can potentially save you and all your allies from a ranged area effect, blast or some sort.

What I've learned from 4th edition, is the confirmed notions of how the effects need to end all at the same time ye make the 50/50 saving throws, as the complicated timers truly don't add anything to the game. Also that, so far, an all ranged party kinda makes the game feel a bit different at least, enough it might let one replay the game a second time, just do it at 10th+ level I'd say.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:41 am

Aryxbez wrote: Agreed on the fun of Disruptive strike, it's great when ye can potentially save you and all your allies from a ranged area effect, blast or some sort.

I've wondered how to turn that into a 'core' part of the game and not just a specific class encounter power.

Delayed actions? Or perhaps expending a standard action the way immediate interrupts use your next turn's swift action.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:40 am

What level are you looking for? If you're doing an all-ranged party the only force multiplier character that really works is a ranged Warlord or a very specifically-built Warlock (and then only at around level 16). And your group already has one of both. I do notice that you guys are lacking a wizard/mage, however.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:49 pm

OgreBattle wrote:I've wondered how to turn that into a 'core' part of the game and not just a specific class encounter power.

Delayed actions? Or perhaps expending a standard action the way immediate interrupts use your next turn's swift action.

You would have to make a special case for the Delayed Action, since they only count as "Interrupts" for movement, and everything else would be a reaction. Also, good thing can't stack on penalties, as good god a whole party combining their Disruptive Strikes at once to form a super cancel on Orcus's super death beam! Even if that kinda sounds cool, though 4-6 interrupts at once sounds like bog things down, especially if it can happen at-will. The second alternative is definitely rather costly, hope the penalty it gives is good enough to warrant the loss of the standard action. If you make it straight up negate the attack upon the PC hitting the target, obviously that messes up Solo's and Elites big time, essentially getting "action locked".

Well Lago funny you mention that, since the game I'm in is about to go into 16th level, so you can pretty much start from there at the very least. Though I know the Warlord is one PC probably in need of some higher optimization since 10th level, and unsure, but the Bard or Sorcerer (class optimization guide for them is kinda crummy). Also we had a wizard player at one point (orb, allowed un-errata'd sleep no less!), but couldn't show up anymore due to Life and what have you. Another coincidence though, the bard PC was briefly a warlock before conceptual suggestion and fact Bard's rock, last I checked anyway.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:54 pm

What books/resources do you have access to? Since someone wasn't using errata it sounds heavily like you're not using the Character Builder; if you are using it, however, what's the date of the last update?

Yes, optimization in 4E D&D is unnecessarily complicated. Why do you ask?

The Gaming Den

4E is even worse than I thoughtso

4E is even worse than I thoughtso

Re: 4E is even worse than I thoughtso